Comments on: Iranians Release British Sailors http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732 A rough draft of my thoughts... Sat, 06 Oct 2007 00:14:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361643 Thu, 05 Apr 2007 20:36:50 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361643 Chris, When did I defend the actions of the Iranians? Here's what I said: it was "excellent news" that the sailors and marines were released. Which, it was. You, in turn, erupted in a diatribe about it not being excellent news (I guess you wanted them to stay in captivity? I assume not, but still)and that the West no longer had a "spine". Further, you keep referring to the hostages as cowards and talking about their hotel conditions and the nuts they were eating. Yes, the Iranians should never have seized these persons and they should not have held them for 12 minutes, let alone 12 days. And yes, the Iranians violated the Geneva Conventions by parading them before the cameras. However, I never have justified anything that the Iranians did. I have said that I am glad that the hostages have been freed and that I understand why they behaved as they did in captivity (where you called them "cowards"). Indeed, by raising the Geneva Convention you seem to be changing the subject. Chris,

When did I defend the actions of the Iranians?

Here’s what I said: it was “excellent news” that the sailors and marines were released. Which, it was.

You, in turn, erupted in a diatribe about it not being excellent news (I guess you wanted them to stay in captivity? I assume not, but still)and that the West no longer had a “spine”.

Further, you keep referring to the hostages as cowards and talking about their hotel conditions and the nuts they were eating.

Yes, the Iranians should never have seized these persons and they should not have held them for 12 minutes, let alone 12 days. And yes, the Iranians violated the Geneva Conventions by parading them before the cameras.

However, I never have justified anything that the Iranians did.

I have said that I am glad that the hostages have been freed and that I understand why they behaved as they did in captivity (where you called them “cowards”).

Indeed, by raising the Geneva Convention you seem to be changing the subject.

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by: cmv1202 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361625 Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:17:39 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361625 And don't forget the Geneva Convention that you touted during the Gitmo and detainee discussions of the past. Free pass fot Iran from the world community on that one too. This is a great artice that you should read. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjE5YTU5NDE3M2M1ZGRiNWM4YTQ3MWUzMjQ4MDAwYWE= And don’t forget the Geneva Convention that you touted during the Gitmo and detainee discussions of the past. Free pass fot Iran from the world community on that one too. This is a great artice that you should read.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjE5YTU5NDE3M2M1ZGRiNWM4YTQ3MWUzMjQ4MDAwYWE=

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by: cmv1202 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361624 Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:09:08 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361624 Really, how about this? http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007150662,00.html http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391544-details/Sailors+touch+down+at+Heathrow+-+with+their+goody+bags/article.do You thought process is borderline NYT mixed with a sprinkle of European arrogance. You are completely wrong on this issue. I have talked to a number of friends that are serving and have served in the military and they are so outraged in regards the speed of the 15 cowards folding that they would love to know what training these guys and girls go though in regards to capture and detainment procedures. Name rank serial number, I guess is not part of it. This is the best part yet: Among the gifts given to the captives in Iran were handicrafts, books, pistachio nuts, a Persian sweet called "gaz" and a vase. Nice. Really, how about this?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007150662,00.html

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391544-details/Sailors+touch+down+at+Heathrow+-+with+their+goody+bags/article.do

You thought process is borderline NYT mixed with a sprinkle of European arrogance. You are completely wrong on this issue. I have talked to a number of friends that are serving and have served in the military and they are so outraged in regards the speed of the 15 cowards folding that they would love to know what training these guys and girls go though in regards to capture and detainment procedures. Name rank serial number, I guess is not part of it. This is the best part yet:

Among the gifts given to the captives in Iran were handicrafts, books, pistachio nuts, a Persian sweet called “gaz” and a vase.

Nice.

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by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361549 Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:15:07 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361549 And really--where in the world do you get the notion that being held captive is like being in a hotel? That's utterly ludicrous. Even if you are being held captive <i>in</i> a hotel you are still <i>being held captive</i>. And really-where in the world do you get the notion that being held captive is like being in a hotel? That’s utterly ludicrous.

Even if you are being held captive in a hotel you are still being held captive.

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by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361548 Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:13:58 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361548 I would note that I said that the "news" was "excellent"--which the release of the 15 hostages could be construed as nothing but. I am not sure what Iran "won" here and, indeed, escalation, including a blockage, might well have worked to the regime's favor. Instead, what did they get? At this point, very little. And as far as the hostages are concerned and their TV appearances, I suppose that under duress you would have shown more spine? This is real life, not the movies. If you were held captive in a foreign country with the very real possibility that you might never see you family again if the the situation went badly, I suspect you would have been willing to read a statement for the cameras. Am I <i>pleased</i> by the whole thing? No. Am I glad that it seemingly has been resolved with very little overall damage to the sailors and to the international system? Yes, yes I am. It is unclear to me what you wanted aside from some flexing of muscles that ultimately don't mean anything and would have possibly made the situation much worse. I would note that I said that the “news” was “excellent”-which the release of the 15 hostages could be construed as nothing but.

I am not sure what Iran “won” here and, indeed, escalation, including a blockage, might well have worked to the regime’s favor. Instead, what did they get? At this point, very little.

And as far as the hostages are concerned and their TV appearances, I suppose that under duress you would have shown more spine?

This is real life, not the movies. If you were held captive in a foreign country with the very real possibility that you might never see you family again if the the situation went badly, I suspect you would have been willing to read a statement for the cameras.

Am I pleased by the whole thing? No. Am I glad that it seemingly has been resolved with very little overall damage to the sailors and to the international system? Yes, yes I am.

It is unclear to me what you wanted aside from some flexing of muscles that ultimately don’t mean anything and would have possibly made the situation much worse.

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by: cmv1202 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361546 Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:13:09 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361546 Excuse me did I say war or military action, no, but you cannot tell me that this was an "excellent" resolution to an event that should have had the West willing to make some dramatic choices, i.e. Naval blockades, going to the UN for a resolution that would at least add on to the number that are already pending. Iran has won again and those who think that we can just shrug this episode aside is foolish, the West looks weak and I hate to say it Bin Laden was right we are all paper tigers. As far as the sailors go not one shot, eating as though they were in a hotel and saying anything that the Mullahs would like them to say, pathetic. Excuse me did I say war or military action, no, but you cannot tell me that this was an “excellent” resolution to an event that should have had the West willing to make some dramatic choices, i.e. Naval blockades, going to the UN for a resolution that would at least add on to the number that are already pending. Iran has won again and those who think that we can just shrug this episode aside is foolish, the West looks weak and I hate to say it Bin Laden was right we are all paper tigers. As far as the sailors go not one shot, eating as though they were in a hotel and saying anything that the Mullahs would like them to say, pathetic.

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by: cmv1202 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361545 Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:12:12 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361545 Excuse me did I say war or military action, no, but you cannot tell me that this was an "excellent" resolution to an event that should have had the West willing to make some dramatic choices, i.e. Naval blockades, going to the UN for a resolution that would at least add on to the number that are already pending. Iran has won again and those who think that we can just shrug this episode aside are foolish, the West looks weak and, I hate to say it, Bin Laden was right we are all paper tigers. As far as the sailors go not one shot, eating as though they were in a hotel and saying anything that the Mullahs would like them to say, pathetic. Excuse me did I say war or military action, no, but you cannot tell me that this was an “excellent” resolution to an event that should have had the West willing to make some dramatic choices, i.e. Naval blockades, going to the UN for a resolution that would at least add on to the number that are already pending. Iran has won again and those who think that we can just shrug this episode aside are foolish, the West looks weak and, I hate to say it, Bin Laden was right we are all paper tigers. As far as the sailors go not one shot, eating as though they were in a hotel and saying anything that the Mullahs would like them to say, pathetic.

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by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361542 Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:25:12 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361542 The most important elements of this story is that the sailors were safely released sans any bloodshed and without any significant concessions or escalation. Would you prefer that we launched military action to prove that we have a "spine"? That is insane, my friend. The most important elements of this story is that the sailors were safely released sans any bloodshed and without any significant concessions or escalation.

Would you prefer that we launched military action to prove that we have a “spine”? That is insane, my friend.

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by: cmv1202 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361541 Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:22:55 +0000 http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=11732#comment-1361541 There is not one thing that is "excellent" about this news. Game, set and match Iran. Blair looks like a buffoon, the sailors look like pathetic losers and the UK looks weak. Now Pelosi wants to take credit for having the sailors freed, good for her. I am sure that the Democrats have more respect for Ahmadinejad than they do Bush anyways. Am I living a Bizarro world or has the West just lost its spine in a matter of months? I am sure that McCain and others that were beat in the Hanoi Hilton to make comments against their own country could share a few words with the cowards of Cornwall. Brits your fate is sealed and all of those radical Muslims living next door are ready for another reason to burn London to the ground, maybe next time. There is not one thing that is “excellent” about this news. Game, set and match Iran. Blair looks like a buffoon, the sailors look like pathetic losers and the UK looks weak. Now Pelosi wants to take credit for having the sailors freed, good for her. I am sure that the Democrats have more respect for Ahmadinejad than they do Bush anyways. Am I living a Bizarro world or has the West just lost its spine in a matter of months? I am sure that McCain and others that were beat in the Hanoi Hilton to make comments against their own country could share a few words with the cowards of Cornwall. Brits your fate is sealed and all of those radical Muslims living next door are ready for another reason to burn London to the ground, maybe next time.

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